View Full Version : Society, Religion & Politics
worry_rock
08-20-2008, 12:29 AM
On another forum I'm on they have many sections for different topics and this is one I quite liked to read. TLE board sometimes seems to lack discussion of this sort :p so basically you can talk about anything that's appropriate to the thread title (eg immigration, the olympics, terrorism) in here.
Anyway, it seems Victoria is set to legalise abortion.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=616839
What are your thoughts?
Yeah, people are pretty crap at proper discussions. Look at how much discussion that georgia/russia thread had.
Its all well and good but it still doesn't make it totally legal in law, which is what I want. In qld and I would presume other states, the law states that a woman can have an abortion if continuing with the pregnancy could effect her physical or mental health. You can twist this however you want so abortions are pretty much legal in practice for any reason anyway.
So, in my opinion that law is just another bit to add on that means nothing.
What I would like to happen is abortion becoming legal in ACTUAL law, ie, something like
"a woman may choose to terminate her pregnancy for whatever reason as long is it performed by a qualified person on licensed premises blah blah blah"
(except in legalese)
When I worked at family planning, I experienced a huge amount of completely clueless people when it came to legality of it, where you could get it done, what it actually was, etc. So perhaps if it was completely legal in print there could be some more awareness campaigns because so many people are clueless and might wait so long that they can't afford it, or beyond the 20 or 24 weeks that you can have a termination
by the way, if you ever have an unplanned pregnancy, don't call the government line. They'll give you skewed information and you'll end up pushing out a kid fo sho'.
Call a family planning clinic or marie stopes or children by choice or something, they'll give you information about all the options.
Wild Turkey
08-20-2008, 08:29 AM
Abortion in wrong.
great discussion there buddy.
I am only guessing the point here since you gave me two words and one word inbetween that doesn't actually go with the other two words.
We live in Australia where we separate church and state. Therefore religion shouldnt really have a part in determining the laws about this. If a woman is raped, is that still wrong? If a 14 year old accidently gets knocked up, is it wrong? if she wants the kid she'd have to change her whole life and that's a big thing.
Deadcat Kaye
08-20-2008, 03:00 PM
Egh, By legalising Abortion..All those girls who Accidently fall pregnant and do not want the child will take other means in killing the unborn kid.
And there is no Healthy way of doing that.
Why do people fine abortion so bad??
At the end of the day it is the women who has fallin pregnant's choice whether ot keep the baby or not.
It shouldn't be the Governments decision nor anyone protesting.
It isn't unfair on the child because the child has no concious yet..
It isn't aware of any of the outside world.
How is it murder when the "Child" has not lived a day in the outside world??
Especially when most abortions happen very early int he pregnancy.
Wild Turkey
08-20-2008, 03:07 PM
I do take your point about a women being raped.
I do think its ok to have an abortion then.
But i do believe abortion is murder.
Because it is!
If you get knocked up and dont want it you give it up for adoption.
You wouldnt kill a baby would you.
Its no different
Ben reed
08-20-2008, 03:09 PM
lol dad asked my oppinion bout abortion yesterday and i said that it was fine and he was saying that he disagrees and stuff blah blah blah and i just said "look i rly cbf argueing bout this"
because it should be the persons choice not governments choice
Wild Turkey
08-20-2008, 03:14 PM
it has nothing to do with goverment.
If too 14 year olds are dumb enough to have unsafe sex then its their own fault
Deadcat Kaye
08-20-2008, 03:14 PM
If abortion is murdering then killing any animal or bug is murder.
The difference between us and every other animal is we're aware of our thoughts.
An unborn child is like any other animal, unaware of it's own thoughts.
I don't even think it has thoughts until much later.
I'm fairly sure there is a certain time in a pregnancy where it is too late to have an abortion.
Like I said, Abortions happen when the unborn child isn't even recognisable as a Human, let alone having it's own thoughts and experience's.
Wild Turkey
08-20-2008, 03:18 PM
Is still wrong.
But thats just my opinon and everyone is intitled to their opinion
I do take your point about a women being raped.
I do think its ok to have an abortion then.
But i do believe abortion is murder.
Because it is!
If you get knocked up and dont want it you give it up for adoption.
You wouldnt kill a baby would you.
Its no different
If you think this, don't have one (i dont know if you have a vagina or not)
As far as the law is concerned, a foetus is not a baby, its a thing growing inside someone. It shouldn't be the responsibility of moralisers to say that its murder because jebus told them so.
Murder is killing a human being. A foetus is not a person yet.
If you have the argument that it is potential life, sure, but using that logic you can say that its wrong to use the morning after pill, the regular pill, a condom or the withdrawal method or kill a fly.
by the way, im not entirely opposed to adoption and if you want to be a regular juno and give it up for adoption and you can absolutely handle that, go ahead. Hardly anyone in Australia gives their baby up for adoption in Australia so you would be giving a nice gift to some nice couple, im sure. ^_^
damo0945
08-20-2008, 03:24 PM
I'm in favour of it being legalised to a point, the thing is that at like 20 something weeks you can give birth to a baby and have it survive i think... Plus the laws pretty much only legalise what's already happening... And most people have them fairly early in pregnancy don't they? (I'm Guessing Kylie can answer that?)
Wild Turkey
08-20-2008, 03:24 PM
I see what you mean.
It really comes down too when you believe a person has been created.
When an egg is fertelised then its wrong to kill it.
A condom just stops sperm which are already in a man.
Men have billions of children if you consider them to be kids
Wild Turkey
08-20-2008, 03:28 PM
I'm in favour of it being legalised to a point, the thing is that at like 20 something weeks you can give birth to a baby and have it survive i think... Plus the laws pretty much only legalise what's already happening... And most people have them fairly early in pregnancy don't they? (I'm Guessing Kylie can answer that?)
20 weeks is terrible.
It should be murder.
I have heard stories of little babys/feteses thrown in the bin and there alive.
There like a little alien.
Its wrong its discusing
When an egg is fertelised then its wrong to kill it.
A condom just stops sperm which are already in a man.
condoms aren't effective 100% of the time. and I don't think its wrong because in the cases where it happens, it is more than likely that the kid and the mother will end up in an even worse situation than having this thing killed and living life as if nothing ever happened (although there would still be maybe some guilt and other feelings, but hell if you are living on the street cos you cant afford to keep the kid they you'd be feeling a lot more guilty after that). and who knows the kid might die of malnutricion, aids or whatever else the reason it need to be aborted in the first place
20 weeks is terrible.
It should be murder.
I have heard stories of little babys/feteses thrown in the bin and there alive.
There like a little alien.
Its wrong its discusing
so I've heard more stories of babies being dumped after they are born whish is a thousand times worse.
lol@alien. I thought you didn't believe in aliens
Wild Turkey
08-20-2008, 03:44 PM
LOl i know i dont believe in them.
Doesnt mean i cant still like them
I would love them to be real!!
I love them as much as anyone else.
How good are they in movies like say um alien lol and independence day and everything.
I dont believe in bigfoot either but he is pretty cool haha
LOl i know i dont believe in them.
Doesnt mean i cant still like them
I would love them to be real!!
I love them as much as anyone else.
How good are they in movies like say um alien lol and independence day and everything.
I dont believe in bigfoot either but he is pretty cool haha
how can you like something that isn't real? how can they be in movies if the don't exist?
Wild Turkey
08-20-2008, 03:54 PM
Because its fiction.
Its exciting?
Is the Matrix Real?
Is batman Real?
Is Godzilla Real?
Is Spiderman Real?
No
No
No
And No.
Doesn't mean ic cant enjoy fiction.
Is the lord of the rings real?....
Want me to continue........
well then aliens do exist to you! only in fiction but still existing none-the-less. :p
I'm in favour of it being legalised to a point, the thing is that at like 20 something weeks you can give birth to a baby and have it survive i think... Plus the laws pretty much only legalise what's already happening... And most people have them fairly early in pregnancy don't they? (I'm Guessing Kylie can answer that?)
Well, some places only start doing at them at 6 weeks (because anything smaller than that and its tricky to see or something.) I think most people want to get them done as soon as they can because the cost rises with each week, and so does the difficulty of the procedure.
There's only one place in qld that does 16-20 weeks (even though its legal up until 24 weeks)
I think the law is actually worked around what is reasonable to expect a foetus to survive outside the womb. Although, I think there's been cases of births at 21-24 weeks, these are extremely rare and you wouldnt expect survival in this case.
I should note that the procedure for 16+ weeks is really complex and when I read about it and it gave me the heebie-jeebies for sure.
If for some reason I got knocked up and didn't find out about until 16 weeks, I'd probably suck it up and push out the kid but I would still like the opportunity to be there for anyone who needs it.
By the way, if you wait to 16weeks its going to cost $1000+ from your own pocket
Julian
08-21-2008, 06:02 PM
I think having the kid and putting it up for adoption is an underused option.
I believe its only about 5 -10 people in queensland each year that do that. I imagine the figures are similar in other states. Its a pretty big and brave move though, so I get why it is.
actually, I think I underestimated that. Still, I found a report that said in 04/05 in Australia there were
there were 65 adoptions of local children and 434 placement adoptions of children from
outside Australia
which is still a pretty small number.
surely this will rise now that we've all seen juno.
adoption is so expensive but. they can't have too many kids that people arent going to "buy" that would be crazy
you can't actually buy kids in australia though, and the price would just be whatever the administration fees are. Overseas adoptions are hella expensive though.
The waiting list for both kinds of adoptions is several years long, so that isn't really an issue.
Wild Turkey
08-21-2008, 07:15 PM
Thats a tiny number for adoptions.
I can see why people dont do it though but seriously more people should.
Havent seen juno yet by the way... i got it but havent watched it. Good?
Deadcat Kaye
08-21-2008, 10:08 PM
But imagine the emotional hardship the kid will go through knowing their parents arn't their birth parents..
It would be a mass mind fuck.
Adoption should be last option, girls shouldn't be forced to have a kid if they don't want too.
There is so many risks when having a child especially at a young age.
and that my friends is why abortion is great!
I don't necessarily think that adoption is particularly painful process for most people. If your parents bring you up appropriately, I think most kids are fine.
My mum was adopted and she said that she's always known and never had any problems with it. Her parents are her parents and that's that. Its never bothered her that she doesn't have their DNA and she didnt slide out of her mothers vagina (okay, she's never said that last part, hahaha)
I know one person doesn't prove anything, but adoption was far more common up until about 1970 and I don't think generations of kids were fucked up for this reason.
But yeah, agree with the last part. I think that if you end up deciding to keep your kid, it would be hard to just give it away so hardly anyone would come to that decision.
but you know what, although I know heaps about this topic, I kind of think abortion is such a high-school topic to debate and its been done to death. LETS DISCUSS SOMETHING ELSE NOW.
Craigels
08-21-2008, 11:19 PM
PERSONALLY I'm against abortion. It annoy me when a fetus (is that spelt right?) dies and people say "oh my poor baby" but if it was aborted it was just another "thing"
I know someone whos method of abortion was getting punched in the stomach :eek::eek::eek:
Wild Turkey
08-22-2008, 12:01 AM
PERSONALLY I'm against abortion. It annoy me when a fetus (is that spelt right?) dies and people say "oh my poor baby" but if it was aborted it was just another "thing"
I know someone whos method of abortion was getting punched in the stomach :eek::eek::eek:
Thats terrible.
How could a person do that, getting punched in the stomach too kill there baby.
Its sick
You make some good points buddy... My Personal Opinion is much like yours.
obviously that person is a fucking nutjob and should be sent to a psych ward but that's just my opinion
however, regardless of the laws, that person still would have done that to themselves in that coathanger backyard fashion so it doesn't really say anything about your point.
*also
do you actually know them, or is it just something someone said to you sometime somewhere.
Raphaela
08-22-2008, 03:06 AM
I'm not against abortion until the third month.
I mean, it's not a life yet in conception
And it's much better to "die" while you don't even have a brain than to live a terrible childhood, with parents that maybe won't like you because you were just a "mistake" (when they don't use condons and stuff) in my opinion.
Craigels
08-24-2008, 08:25 PM
obviously that person is a fucking nutjob and should be sent to a psych ward but that's just my opinion
however, regardless of the laws, that person still would have done that to themselves in that coathanger backyard fashion so it doesn't really say anything about your point.
*also
do you actually know them, or is it just something someone said to you sometime somewhere.
I do know the person
tell her to seek psychiatric help.
I read an interesting fact once, about picking up the brain waves of a foetus. If "alpha" brain waves are evident, then it is a fully conscious living thing. If they're not present, it's simply a piece of meat, no life up there yet. I can't remember how old the foetus usually is before the brain is this developed, but IMO what ever age that this consciousness begins at should be the cut-off age from which abortions are made illegal.
My two cents...
I'm thinking about entering this competition. (http://www.cefa.org.au/content/category/5/17/44/) THe thing is, I always think about entering these essay competitions but I never get around to entering! Perhaps someone needs to make a death threat against me or something.
Colezy
09-03-2008, 06:39 PM
You should enter! Sounds like something you'd do well at :)
The United States of America has a system whereby a series of “primaries” and “caucuses” are used to select presidential candidates. Would civic participation in Australia improve if we adopted a similar system in Australia to elect the Prime Minister and State Premiers? Even if it would, would adoption of US-style primaries and caucuses be desirable.
I like this question, although I'm not quite sure how I feel about it yet. I'm inclined to think it wouldn't work.
I'm going to assume you forgot to include economics in your thread title
wtf is up with the RBA dropping the cash rate so quickly? Consumer demand is down a bit but cutting them already is just going to lead to inflation jumping in the next 6 or so months. You can quote me on the RBA putting interest rates up again in the next 6-12 months.
mr economics man this morning said that inflation will probably go up to about 5% due to recent petrol price rises mostly, but then probably will fall again due to petrol prices falling a little.
He said we'll avoid a recession and growth will probably go back to 3%+ and interest rates will probably be about 1% less than it is currently in a year.
Even though I am studying economics at uni at the moment, he knows more than me so I'm going to go with his point of view.
Plus, I like being optimistic and believing optimistic economists.
private_eye
09-11-2008, 08:23 PM
ok here's something real topical.
Melbourne train lines are considered more dangerous than London, New York and Sydney. that's bad. But Mr Connex doesn't reckon anything is wrong... hmm i wonder how often he gets the train after dark?
So what's to be done? Supposedly there's 200 transit police on trains at a time, but apparently the real figure is closer to 60. I think a real issue is security cameras- on the newer trains they only get activated if you press the distress button that alerts the driver. A lot of people would be too scared to press that button - if you've got a raving lunatic on the train as if you want to draw attention to yourself.
Secondly is the ticket inspectors who are meant to have authority as well. i continually see them let drugged up morons go without a ticket, swearing, feet on seats whatever... and nab a 16 year old kid in school uniform without a concession card (oh that's right all 16 year olds wear school uniform for fun...)
Anyway, second issue is violence on Melbourne streets obviously we've all heard about it and it's actually got to the stage where i'm not going to go to Loft (the place that got evacuated last saturday) on saturday for my friend's birthday cos i don't feel like getting bashed. Not to be racist or anything (or do i...) but has anyone else noticed that nearly EVERY person who is charged with bashing has a European / Middle Eastern - esque name? Maybe the blame lies with parents as well.
Brumby reckons it'll take 2 years before it's solved. I reckon Brumby will be gone by then and good riddance. What do people reckon is the solution?
Every ahmed and muhumad must rename themselves to barry and harry.
I don't really have a serious answer to give apart from the fact that I've never felt unsafe in trains in melbourne or anywhere for that matter.
private_eye
09-11-2008, 08:43 PM
haha i don't have anything against other cultures it just appears from newspaper reports, and seeing stuff first hand, that groups of 'ahmed's and muhamad's' seem to go into town to take pleasure in other people's displeasure, whether its through fighting or just general abuse.
what train lines did you go on, if you can remember? i think they said hurstbridge, pakenham, cranbourne and lilydale were the worst. i'm on the lilydale line and it's pretty average at time, but i think every station has its issues.
I think hurstbridge was the one that I used to live on.
I was just looking at the article and it said that last year crime rates in ny and london public transport went down >10%. So, although these places are kind of regarded as being unsafe, especially new york, the reputation that they hold may not necessarily be as deserving. Thus: saying melbourne is less safe than this is saying less than it really seems.
I dunno if that makes sense and since I don't live there I dont really know anything about it anyway.
Deadcat Kaye
09-11-2008, 08:50 PM
I've been catching trains on the lilydale line for 10 years and have only been "injured" once.
But they where people I "knew"
apart from that, nothing ever goes wrong....more shit happens on the belgrave line
livingendrock
09-11-2008, 08:52 PM
ok here's something real topical.
Melbourne train lines are considered more dangerous than London, New York and Sydney. that's bad. But Mr Connex doesn't reckon anything is wrong... hmm i wonder how often he gets the train after dark?
So what's to be done? Supposedly there's 200 transit police on trains at a time, but apparently the real figure is closer to 60. I think a real issue is security cameras- on the newer trains they only get activated if you press the distress button that alerts the driver. A lot of people would be too scared to press that button - if you've got a raving lunatic on the train as if you want to draw attention to yourself.
Secondly is the ticket inspectors who are meant to have authority as well. i continually see them let drugged up morons go without a ticket, swearing, feet on seats whatever... and nab a 16 year old kid in school uniform without a concession card (oh that's right all 16 year olds wear school uniform for fun...)
Anyway, second issue is violence on Melbourne streets obviously we've all heard about it and it's actually got to the stage where i'm not going to go to Loft (the place that got evacuated last saturday) on saturday for my friend's birthday cos i don't feel like getting bashed. Not to be racist or anything (or do i...) but has anyone else noticed that nearly EVERY person who is charged with bashing has a European / Middle Eastern - esque name? Maybe the blame lies with parents as well.
Brumby reckons it'll take 2 years before it's solved. I reckon Brumby will be gone by then and good riddance. What do people reckon is the solution?
Yeah I agree with all of that. Its gotten to the point where I try to stear clear of going out in the city on the weekend. My backround is Italian, so im not being racist when I say yes, its mainly the wogs that cause trouble. Lebanese in particular. Yet ive gone out on benders all over Europe... and theres never as much fighting. Maybe 1 or 2 tourists. Whats the problem? Most of Generation Y, thats the problem. A generation of spoiled brats, who come from dual income familys. Both their parents are barely home, they work long hours and they feel bad about not spending much time with their kids. So they spoil them rotten, give them what they want, no questions asked. Mix that with alcohol and drugs, and the geneal cockiness you get when you're around your mates, and thats why we have so much violence on the streets at night.
Whats the solution? Not sure really, but more cops on the streets and zero tollerance is a good start. If they find anyone high, or even just really drunk and showing aggressive behaviour, lock them up. No more slap on the wrist bullshit, send them to prison for a month or 2, give them a criminal record. That will make them think twice before acting like a dickhead in public.
private_eye
09-11-2008, 08:52 PM
shit happens at the lilydale, mooroolbark and ringwood stations mainly. luckily i get off at croydon where it's usually ok. but when i used to work 100 metres from lilydale station at the pub... you see why it's pretty dangerous
livingendrock
09-11-2008, 08:54 PM
I think hurstbridge was the one that I used to live on.
I was just looking at the article and it said that last year crime rates in ny and london public transport went down >10%. So, although these places are kind of regarded as being unsafe, especially new york, the reputation that they hold may not necessarily be as deserving. Thus: saying melbourne is less safe than this is saying less than it really seems.
I dunno if that makes sense and since I don't live there I dont really know anything about it anyway.
Hah! I found New York to be one of the safest cities in the world. In the main parts anyway lol
private_eye
09-11-2008, 08:55 PM
Yeah I agree with all of that. Its gotten to the point where I try to stear clear of going out in the city on the weekend. My backround is Italian, so im not being racist when I say yes, its mainly the wogs that cause trouble. Lebanese in particular. Yet ive gone out on benders all over Europe... and theres never as much fighting. Maybe 1 or 2 tourists. Whats the problem? Most of Generation Y, thats the problem. A generation of spoiled brats, who come from dual income familys. Both their parents are barely home, they work long hours and they feel bad about not spending much time with their kids. So they spoil them rotten, give them what they want, no questions asked. Mix that with alcohol and drugs, and the geneal cockiness you get when you're around your mates, and thats why we have so much violence on the streets at night.
Whats the solution? Not sure really, but more cops on the streets and zero tollerance is a good start. If they find anyone high, or even just really drunk and showing aggressive behaviour, lock them up. No more slap on the wrist bullshit, send them to prison for a month or 2, give them a criminal record. That will make them think twice before acting like a dickhead in public.
Hang on. are you saying that anyone who is drunk should be sent to jail for a couple of months? or that anyone who's drunk, AND being aggressive should be sent to jail?
i don't think you can send people to jail for being drunk. if they're going to do that then ban alcohol. I think there's a fine line being acting like a dickhead, which we all do at times, drunk or not, and acting dangerously and aggressively to other people. I love nothing more than a good bender with mates but that's all it is - a good night out with mates. I think 95% of people who go out would be in that boat, it's the 5% that love a good bender and a bashing that cause the issue
Kacky
09-11-2008, 08:56 PM
I found there to be some creepers on the train in Melbourne, but I got through. :p
private_eye
09-11-2008, 08:57 PM
Hah! I found New York to be one of the safest cities in the world. In the main parts anyway lol
yeh when they've got about 30 groups of at least 5 cops standing around times square you feel pretty safe! one day dad i were walking somewhere and came across this little park with a circle/quadrangle-y type thing with about 8 big black guys standing around it, by themselves with about 10-15 metres in between them. that was freaky!
but NY got cleaned up from all reports by Guldiani (i know i didn't spell that right)... dad i walked through Hells Kitchen a few years ago, and he said that when he went 15-20 years ago, you wouldn't go within 5 blocks of it...
livingendrock
09-11-2008, 09:02 PM
Hang on. are you saying that anyone who is drunk should be sent to jail for a couple of months? or that anyone who's drunk, AND being aggressive should be sent to jail?
i don't think you can send people to jail for being drunk. if they're going to do that then ban alcohol. I think there's a fine line being acting like a dickhead, which we all do at times, drunk or not, and acting dangerously and aggressively to other people. I love nothing more than a good bender with mates but that's all it is - a good night out with mates. I think 95% of people who go out would be in that boat, it's the 5% that love a good bender and a bashing that cause the issue
oh no i didnt mean that at all! Just the dickheads who act up and are aggressive towards other people. Bender with your mates, different story lol
private_eye
09-11-2008, 09:07 PM
lucky, i might be facing a long stint...!
i think this saturday i'll just go to the footy and hang out around richmond...
Sarah
09-11-2008, 10:35 PM
Most of Generation Y, thats the problem. A generation of spoiled brats, who come from dual income familys. Both their parents are barely home, they work long hours and they feel bad about not spending much time with their kids. So they spoil them rotten, give them what they want, no questions asked. Mix that with alcohol and drugs, and the geneal cockiness you get when you're around your mates, and thats why we have so much violence on the streets at night.
i think that's exactly the problem with a lot of things...wouldn't know what to do to fix it though.
also, i realise that people in Melbourne (and other big cities) are more dependant on public transport than us down here, but hasn't it always been best not to travel public transport alone at night? It's sad that's how it is, but i don't think it's gotten much worse down here then ever before. Has the Melbourne situation gotten worse or just everyone else has gotten better??
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