P Platers

[Fritz]

I really hate this.

These proposed restrictions for red P platers having only 1 passenger is the most marboed (my word for fucked up) ideas ive heard in a long time.

Whenever a P plater dies we all hear about it and how something has gotta be fixed. When a full license driver dies you hear the story and case closed.

When I was on my red P's we took turns at driving to Music college everyday (3 or 4 of us). When I was on my red P's I would drive to gigs with the other members of my band in the same car. We were all on our reds at the time.

And theres the whole 'yeah lets do a 11pm - 5am curfew'. Yeah that would work for my fellow musician friends who do solo or duo gigs 3 nights a week and make a living (well a $600 per week) out of it.

Oh and my the way...... I'm not a red p plater. I just think this is bloody stupid.
I'd love to see the ratio of P platers killed versus full licensed drivers killed. But noooooooooo we'd never hear about that on the news. No way.

Stupid parents, stop blaming everyone except yourselfs for not teaching your kid the extreme warnings of driving stupid.

[Aaron]

It's poor teaching of drivers that causes them to die, not a lack of restrictions.

[The Dying Start]

It'll never pass. You just can't impose those restrictions without causing other problems.

For example if you can only have one passenger, all those drunk cunts who were gonna ride with the dezzo, are gonna take their own car and try to drive home because they can't afford a taxi after pissing the pay packet against the wall.


I think if they want to impose any legislation it should be for a compulsory defencive driving course. There are huge numbers of young people killed...but not all of it is due to people tooling around...alot..sure...but not all. The other main factor is just kids not knowing how to control the car properly in difficult circumstances.

[Strider]

At the end of the day I don't think any amount of training is gonna really help. It all comes down to the individual driver and using common sense in the situation. Teenage drivers (lets face it) are the idiots of the roads. I'm talking about all those knobs who do stupid idiotic things and they don't have the driving experience to know how to deal with particular situations. Not to say older people are any better, but at least we know how to multitask. Driving when you're tired, under the influence of alcohol, drugs, trying to overtake cars when you shouldn't. They are really dumb things to do.
All comes down to experience at the end of the day.

[Dthwestcoast]

Plainly won't work I have proof since the start of the anti-hoon laws came into affect in WA. There have been probablt more hoons at 3am and stupid times like that. And for ironic the more responsible the driver the more chance of an accident (as far as I see it, The 3 mates that have died on the road weren't speeding or drinking it was a simple set of tragic circumstances)

[Mirm]

Teenage drivers (lets face it) are the idiots of the roads. .

I don't think this is necessarily true. I'm sure the ratio of idiots in both teenage and adult age-groups are the same. The other day I was waiting in the car under the supermarket, and I watched an old man get out of his car, walk to the bottle shop to buy a flask of bourbon. He then sat in his car and drank the whole thing, got out and threw it away, then got back in his car and drove off. Thats fucking stupid.
Sure, I do know a lot of idiot teenagers who drive drunk and a high and use their phones and break the speed limit and drive dangerously, but I know just as many people from all ages who do the same. its completely individual. I know even more drivers who drive safe and follow road rules.

These 4 kids that were killed recently, they went to school in Lismore, and theres just been so much uproar in the community about this. Obviously people are upset, but if there'd only been one passenger allowed in the car, then there could still be two children dead. Is that any better? You can never stop people from doing idiot things, and you cant stop accidents from happening. Its country roads in bad weather, it was an accident waiting to happen. Every time i drive round a corner on the road out to nimbin, theres another bunch of flowers tied to a tree trunk. This shit is awful, but i bet most of those drivers are on their full license with years of experience behind them. Its all just terrible accidents that are going to keep happening. Unless you pad all the roads with foam and set the limits at 20km, straighten out the bends in the road and get rid of all the trees.

[Sammas]

It's poor teaching of drivers that causes them to die, not a lack of restrictions.

Bollocks to that, I say :o

I don't think better teaching or restrictions will change a thing. Some people are destined to die on the road. If you drive like a clown its inevitable... just pray it doesn't happen when you have a car full of passengers or take another car down with you.

[Caity]

Kinda building on what Miriam said, you're never going to stop all the road accidents, whether you're a P-plater or you're on your opens. It might just be the driver in the car, it might be four passengers and the driver. Either way, it's a tragedy if something happens but you can't reduce the amount of passengers as a way of limiting accidents. All that would happen is instead of one car with five people, it'd be three cars and then *gasps* they'd go hooning and might crash then too! You're never going to get a solution - there will always be road accidents as long as there are idiots.

[Sammas]

And theres the whole 'yeah lets do a 11pm - 5am curfew'. Yeah that would work for my fellow musician friends who do solo or duo gigs 3 nights a week and make a living (well a $600 per week) out of it.

Im positive there will be valid exceptions for people with genuine reasons, like work.

[Sarah]

Where I live I see more dangerous older/full licenced drivers than P platers.

I think this 1 passenger thing is a rediculous idea because of the economic stress it'd put on uni kids/people just starting out in the workplace and it completely contradicts all the designated driver stuff they've been pushing for the last couple of years.

I think defensive driving training should be compulsive in getting your licence. I also think that there should be follow ups on your licence every 5 years or so - You'll have to resit you test again to keep your licence. I drive 100kms a day for work through suburbs, country towns, highways and major trafic interchanges, and it isn't the P platers that nearly kill me every day, it's the middle age wankers in their shit box (isn't my 91 magna a supurb example of automotive engineering...) cars that pull rediculously dangerous manuvers because they are just plain stupid.

It's not the P platers that cause pile ups on the southern outlet every week, nor is it the P platers that have accidents on the tasman bridge every morning.

[*M!]

in my small country town the bigger problem is the roads they're shit
there are potholes and a large number of blind spots around due to trees or vehicles parked in inappropriate places

this affects P platers, L platers, and fully liscenced drivers alike

it is also very common for the male species in this sleepy little death-toll town to go driving whilst angry

the amount of people killed or seriously injured because they've just broken up with their girlfriend/significant other is incredible - what a waste

my rambling point being...
i don't think P plates makes you any less of a safe driver regardless of passenger numbers...

there are other things that need to be fixed first

*M!

[Strider]

I don't think this is necessarily true. I'm sure the ratio of idiots in both teenage and adult age-groups are the same. The other day I was waiting in the car under the supermarket, and I watched an old man get out of his car, walk to the bottle shop to buy a flask of bourbon. He then sat in his car and drank the whole thing, got out and threw it away, then got back in his car and drove off. Thats fucking stupid.
Sure, I do know a lot of idiot teenagers who drive drunk and a high and use their phones and break the speed limit and drive dangerously, but I know just as many people from all ages who do the same. its completely individual. I know even more drivers who drive safe and follow road rules.



I agree with your view however my whole point was older drivers have the 'driving experience' and are better equipped to deal with those particular situations. It doesn't mean that older drivers don't have accidents, it simply means they have less chance of being in an accident if they were in the same scenario as a younger driver.

[KillingInTheNameOf]

cbf reading after the first 2 post . . .

But yeah I think Im getting a driving course voucher thing for xmas off my Grandma cos she is probably the most paranoid person alive

Though it'll undoubtedly benefit me in the long run

[cdejonge]

I did a driving course through AAMI for free and I get 25% off my insurance until I'm 25 I think. It was good. First time I actually accelerated hard and smoked the tyres when braking. Maybe it encouraged me to drive worse ...

Nah, seriously they're a great idea.

[worry_rock]

In Victoria, there are new P-plater laws that will start in 2008. Can't exactly remember what they will entail. But yeah, luckily I'll be 18 before then haha. I just need to stop being lazy and go get my Ls.

[Rhiannon]

I hadn't heard about that. I should probably hurry up and get my licence then...

[Brad]

I think the 50 hours driving isn't enforced enough for learners. At least some of it should have to be done with an actual instructor.

[Strider]

To be honest, I think education is only 20% of the problem. Which is why I believe University is shit compared to TAFE, you learn all this theory but most of it can't be applied into real life. The 'practical application' (which in this case is simply driving) is far more important than anything that can be taught.

[Sammas]

Which is why I believe University is shit compared to TAFE, you learn all this theory but most of it can't be applied into real life.



Huh? What university have you attended where that was the case?

[Strider]

Well lets look at the figures. Just about every graduate from TAFE can find a job in their chosen field, a lot of university graduates can't find work and often get told to go to TAFE because they're underqualified. I don't wanna over-generalise cos I'm well aware a lot of careers are only able to be done in Uni, but the ones that are also accessible in TAFE- you'll generally find those people will win jobs over Uni graduates. Uni just seems to pile a lot of crap into 5 years and most of it is just useless.

[Jawn]

I've just graduated from a uni course and Ive been inundated with job offers. None of which are good to me because Im doing another course next year.


It all depends on the course really.

[Sammas]

Well lets look at the figures. Just about every graduate from TAFE can find a job in their chosen field, a lot of university graduates can't find work and often get told to go to TAFE because they're underqualified. I don't wanna over-generalise cos I'm well aware a lot of careers are only able to be done in Uni, but the ones that are also accessible in TAFE- you'll generally find those people will win jobs over Uni graduates. Uni just seems to pile a lot of crap into 5 years and most of it is just useless.

You don't want to over generalise but you are very much over generalising. The difference between what results from tafe and uni comes down to the individual student, not the type of institution they choose to study at.

Have you ever been to Uni?


...im curious to see these figures as well.

[Strider]

Yeah, that is true. Which is why I said some courses can only be done in Uni, as apposed to Uni & TAFE. From all the people i've known who've gone to either Uni or TAFE, most of them have all agreed that TAFE students usually get a lot more job offers. That isn't to say Uni students don't as well. Just that industry is more inclined to hire TAFE ppl. Anyways this convo has nothing to do with p platers haha

[Sammas]

Yeah, that is true. Which is why I said some courses can only be done in Uni, as apposed to Uni & TAFE. From all the people i've known who've gone to either Uni or TAFE, most of them have all agreed that TAFE students usually get a lot more job offers. That isn't to say Uni students don't as well. Just that industry is more inclined to hire TAFE ppl. Anyways this convo has nothing to do with p platers haha

Thats absolutely contrary to everyone I know who has attended tafe or uni. 29 people from my year 12 class did exactly the same commerce degree at the same university along with the other 500 people enrolled in the course. All but 3 have been working in their chosen commerce field for the last 18months. The only reason those 3 aren't in jobs probably has something to do with the fact that they are still finishing their degree's.

The few people that I know who have gone to tafe either ended up at Uni anyway or have gotten jobs in completely different fields to what they studied.

Sure some jobs probably suit tafe graduates better, but there is no way in hell that industry is more inclinded to hire tafe people. That generalisation is as broad, fuzzy and grey around the edges as John Howard's eyebows.

One thing is for sure though, tafe is a dead end as far as continued education goes.

[Strider]

Obviously if you've been to Uni you're gonna argue the point...but I'm speaking from (specifically my industry) but also a number of other industrys out there who consider TAFE students more 'workplace ready' that Uni students. Uni students often get told to go back to TAFE to do units before a company will hire them in my industry, and I've heard the same in other industries. It's just the facts. Obviously you can't become a Doctor at TAFE, I'm merely pointing out the comparison to TAFE & Uni in terms of getting a job for courses offered at both institutions. I don't mind Uni, in fact I'll probably go one day when I have time & money to waste. But at this point in time I see it as a waste of time, a waste of a lot of money, and won't further me in any way in my chosen field. It'd probably do the opposite in fact!
Your point about people doing TAFE who've ended up in Uni or gotten jobs in other fields is completely irrelevant. I think it's safe to assume the dropout rate for Uni would be worse and you're left with a huge debt at the same time. And besides, dropping out of a cheap1-2 year course at TAFE is nowhere near as bad as dropping out of an expensive 3-7 year course at UNI.
As far as continued education goes, the best form of it is simply teaching yourself in industry or having a mentor who already knows what he's doing show ya the ropes.

[Lowee]

I think you're both wrong, Uni isn't a waste of time, and TAFE isn't a deadend, it just all depends on what you want to do, and what level you want to do it at. You don't become a doctor at TAFE, but if you wanna be a chef your better off there. If you want to be an accountant you can go to either, but Uni will generally allow you to reach a higher level.

University and TAFE are both different, and both excellent.

[Sarah]

and both completely off topic :P

[Sammas]

Obviously if you've been to Uni you're gonna argue the point...

Im not arguing anything, im just saying your vague generalisations are a load of bollocks.

But yeah, I went to uni. I did a degree that could be considered a "niche" career, even the lecturers said very few people would get a career in it yet I did along with the majority of those I graduated with.

but I'm speaking from (specifically my industry) but also a number of other industrys out there who consider TAFE students more 'workplace ready' that Uni students.

so what industry is "your" industry, and what industries are those that consider tafe students more workplace ready?


Your point about people doing TAFE who've ended up in Uni or gotten jobs in other fields is completely irrelevant. I think it's safe to assume the dropout rate for Uni would be worse and you're left with a huge debt at the same time. And besides, dropping out of a cheap1-2 year course at TAFE is nowhere near as bad as dropping out of an expensive 3-7 year course at UNI.

Why is it completely irrelevant? Those that went from tafe to Uni did it because their employer told them too.

I don't think its safe to assume anything, have you attended uni? Do you understand the HECS system? Have you seen some of the facilities that your fees provide you with? You do know that the university i went to had 22,000 students attending. Sure, a few drop out but as far as a percentage I doubt it is very different from tafe at all. But this is all completely irrelevant. It's people having a change of heart because something wasn't what they through it would be, or because they had a change of heart. This has nothing to do with industry is more inclined to hire TAFE ppl or University is shit compared to TAFE. Are you going to suggest that those people spend 3 or 4 years studying something that don't enjoy, and that this some how makes university shit?



As far as continued education goes, the best form of it is simply teaching yourself in industry or having a mentor who already knows what he's doing show ya the ropes.

Sure, that could work... until your mentor has taught you everything they know, then what? what happens if you want to narrow your field of research to cover a specifically defined area? what happens if you need specialist equipment? What happens if you come to a question that nobody can answer? Sounds like PhD time. Not only do you have other doctors within the field as mentors but you are often answering questions that have never been asked or answered, it is on the cutting edge of your chosen field of study... and you can't do it unless you have a degree.

[Sammas]

but if you wanna be a chef your better off there.

I said tafe as far as ongoing education is a dead end. Not tafe is a dead end like you suggest. There is a clear limit on what tafe can offer you as far as education goes.

Do you going to tafe to be a chef has anything to do with the fact that you can't go to uni to be a chef?

[Mirm]

Well lets look at the figures. Just about every graduate from TAFE can find a job in their chosen field, a lot of university graduates can't find work and often get told to go to TAFE because they're underqualified. I don't wanna over-generalise cos I'm well aware a lot of careers are only able to be done in Uni, but the ones that are also accessible in TAFE- you'll generally find those people will win jobs over Uni graduates. Uni just seems to pile a lot of crap into 5 years and most of it is just useless.

I just finished a tafe course that will never ever help me to get a job. centrelink told me so themselves.

[Kevin]

some one was saying something about dead p-platers?

i suppose every time i sit in a car i have to accept that i could be killed.

i think the most dangerous people on the roads are the crawlers, who travel along well under the speed limit, and at any random moment could do something unexpected, like cut across 3 lanes to get infront of me, when i'm doing 110, and they're doing 60. :mad:
at least if someone is hooning along, i've got an idea of the shit they might pull.

[Sammas]

I remember almost dying the most horrible death in a merging lane when some clown decided they weren't going to be able to merge in on to the highway, so they slammed on the breaks at 90km's an hour. Luckily I was paying attention to merge in to the traffic quick enough to avoid running up the back of them. Whats funny is that the 8 or so cars behind me did the same thing and left that same car sitting in the merging lane.

If you can't merge, you shouldn't be driving :mad:

[Kevin]

alot of people can't seem to grasp the fact that in order to merge onto a motorway, they should be going at the speed the cars on the motorway are travelling. ie. 110km/h. it's useless to be cruising down at 60, then hitting the motorway, causing everyone in the left lane to slow down and making it harder for others to merge on.

[dirty man]

i dont like the fact that the media is going on about its the governments fault p platers are dying and that they should have restrictions on the amount of passangers, well i agree that there should be restrictions, but still if a group of people get drunk they may still pile into a car, law or no law

[KillingInTheNameOf]

In Victoria, there are new P-plater laws that will start in 2008. Can't exactly remember what they will entail. But yeah, luckily I'll be 18 before then haha. I just need to stop being lazy and go get my Ls.

Just because you'll be 18 before then doesnt mean you'll have your Ps before then :p

[Strider]

alot of people can't seem to grasp the fact that in order to merge onto a motorway, they should be going at the speed the cars on the motorway are travelling. ie. 110km/h. it's useless to be cruising down at 60, then hitting the motorway, causing everyone in the left lane to slow down and making it harder for others to merge on.

If you reckon merging is bad over in the eastern states, u should come to Perth. Perth drivers are friggen HOPELESS. I'd say Perth drivers are probably the worst in Australia. We have big open roads which makes people think they own place, then as soon as it hits peak hour traffic the sh!t hits the fan.

[Strider]

Im not arguing anything, im just saying your vague generalisations are a load of bollocks.

But yeah, I went to uni. I did a degree that could be considered a "niche" career, even the lecturers said very few people would get a career in it yet I did along with the majority of those I graduated with.
.
Is your particular 'niche' career only offered at uni? If so then of course you're gonna get a job if you're good enough. You're competing with fellow Uni graduates. Quite logical really.


so what industry is "your" industry, and what industries are those that consider tafe students more workplace ready?
.
Building Industry. I've heard similar things from people who've done any course which is 'hands on' and also offered at uni. Graphic Design, Cooking, Computer. I will agree that some of the more specialised career options offered at Uni will help people advance into more niche positions because TAFE isn't really designed for that I don't believe. Which goes back to my initial point bolded at the bottom of this post...


Why is it completely irrelevant? Those that went from tafe to Uni did it because their employer told them too.

I don't think its safe to assume anything, have you attended uni? Do you understand the HECS system? Have you seen some of the facilities that your fees provide you with? You do know that the university i went to had 22,000 students attending. Sure, a few drop out but as far as a percentage I doubt it is very different from tafe at all. But this is all completely irrelevant. It's people having a change of heart because something wasn't what they through it would be, or because they had a change of heart. This has nothing to do with industry is more inclined to hire TAFE ppl or University is shit compared to TAFE. Are you going to suggest that those people spend 3 or 4 years studying something that don't enjoy, and that this some how makes university shit?


Have you attended TAFE? I haven't attended uni, I know many people who have and a fair few agree that a lot of what they learnt was a load of bullocks. Could have been taught in half the time. The amount of people who said "I only finished the degree cos it cost so much" (Just because you have HECS doesn't mean you don't have to pay it back) or "I didn't even use the degree I got, I found a job doing something else", it's quite amazing. Just because you may be one exception to the rule doesn't mean every single Uni student is the same. I'd say the scenario in TAFE and Uni would be quite similar with dropouts and swith overs which is why I'm saying your initial point was irrelevant. And when I said Uni was shit I was meaning in comparison to similar courses offered at TAFE which are more 'hands on' and less 'theoretical'.


Sure, that could work... until your mentor has taught you everything they know, then what? what happens if you want to narrow your field of research to cover a specifically defined area? what happens if you need specialist equipment? What happens if you come to a question that nobody can answer? Sounds like PhD time. Not only do you have other doctors within the field as mentors but you are often answering questions that have never been asked or answered, it is on the cutting edge of your chosen field of study... and you can't do it unless you have a degree.

Okay, well I'm speaking from my specific industry in terms of mentorship. A mentor in industry is far more capable of teaching you something in real terms as apposed to some uni professor who's never been in the real world and has been teaching at the same uni he graduated at 20 years ago. Yes, unfortunately some uni professionals are a little out of touch with the real world which again, most of the stuff you're referring to are subjects which are more theoretcal and not offered at TAFE. They're designed for Uni. Which again, goes against my initial point:

"I'm merely pointing out the comparison to TAFE & Uni in terms of getting a job for courses offered at both institutions"

So to bring it back to the reason I used it as an example in the first place. If you were to get a drivers licence at uni you'd probably learn all theory behind driving. What to do, how to do it, why you need to do it. You'd attend lectures on various subjects to do with driving. By the time you graduate you'd probably forget it all. You'd have no real on road experience so you'd be thrown in the deep end when you eventually hop in a car. You'd probably get beeped off the road by Tafe graduates who were simply shown the practical applications of driving and got told to jump in the car and learn how to drive which is what they've been doing for the past 2-3 years while their counterparts have been studying! lol That is my take on the TAFE/Uni debate.
___________________

[Jake]

Although I'm not fully clued up on the situation, I have read some things about the new ideas. And to be quite honest, I think that limiting the number of passengers is a load of shit. There will be more cars on the road (therefore more pollution) and more risk of accident statistically - more P platers on the road (assuming these friends are of similar age, just getting their licences) and surely that will cause more accidents, even with only 1 passenger?

I reckon one of the best things they can do is to have re-tests every couple of years, just to make sure drivers are still up to scratch, aware of road rules and regulations, and are fully capable. Yes young people may take more risks, and have less experience, but other drivers are all capable of causing accidents - and frequently do.

[Sammas]

Is your particular 'niche' career only offered at uni? If so then of course you're gonna get a job if you're good enough. You're competing with fellow Uni graduates. Quite logical really.

Nope, its offered at tafe and private colleges as well... you don't even require formal training to do it, but having a degree has proven to be nothing but a benefit for getting your foot in the door.


Building Industry. I've heard similar things from people who've done any course which is 'hands on' and also offered at uni. Graphic Design, Cooking, Computer. I will agree that some of the more specialised career options offered at Uni will help people advance into more niche positions because TAFE isn't really designed for that I don't believe. Which goes back to my initial point bolded at the bottom of this post...

The building industry? What would be the equivilant University degree to the Tafe course that you did?



Have you attended TAFE? I haven't attended uni, I know many people who have and a fair few agree that a lot of what they learnt was a load of bullocks. Could have been taught in half the time. The amount of people who said "I only finished the degree cos it cost so much" (Just because you have HECS doesn't mean you don't have to pay it back) or "I didn't even use the degree I got, I found a job doing something else", it's quite amazing. Just because you may be one exception to the rule doesn't mean every single Uni student is the same. I'd say the scenario in TAFE and Uni would be quite similar with dropouts and swith overs which is why I'm saying your initial point was irrelevant. And when I said Uni was shit I was meaning in comparison to similar courses offered at TAFE which are more 'hands on' and less 'theoretical'.

No, I haven't attended Tafe but i've been in many and know two tafe teachers... and im not saying it isn't a valid choice for education. Im saying that your shady generalisation is bollocks... like i've said quite a few times now.

The fact that people get employment in areas other than what they study doesn't suggest its a lack of education or hands on experience on behalf of the university. Some degrees don't extend past the theoretical because it isn't possible... take a major in philosophy for example, people who do that aren't expecting a career within it, they do it because they enjoy it.

As far as more hands on and less theorectical, how do you know? Have you seen some of the facilities that Universities have? They far exceed what tafe offers for hands on experience. Not only that, most universities work in partnership with some of the biggest firms in the country to provide students with access to world class facilities with million dollar state of the art equipment... the equivalent tafe subject to the degree I did gave you hands on experience with consumer gear that has never been used in a professional situation. Probably because they can't afford to the $180,000 worth of professional equipment that is an industry standard.



Okay, well I'm speaking from my specific industry in terms of mentorship. A mentor in industry is far more capable of teaching you something in real terms as apposed to some uni professor who's never been in the real world and has been teaching at the same uni he graduated at 20 years ago. Yes, unfortunately some uni professionals are a little out of touch with the real world which again, most of the stuff you're referring to are subjects which are more theoretcal and not offered at TAFE. They're designed for Uni. Which again, goes against my initial point:

No, university professionals are not out of touch with the real world, they work within the real world just as much as any other "mentor". To be a university professor you must have experience that far exceeds the 6 month vocational education training that you need to become a tafe teacher. These people aren't teachers, they are working professionals like any other "mentor",work within their chosen field... The only difference is that most professors have the absolute highest level of education and experience that reaches many corners of the globe.

Most of the stuff im talking about is theoretical and not offered at tafe? What? If you can study it at university you can do a PhD in it. If that means its still not offered at tafe its a complete non-event than. That would mean tafe doesn't offer any course that uni does. The fact that university offers more intense study doesn't mean it lacks any hands on experience... quite the opposite.

"I'm merely pointing out the comparison to TAFE & Uni in terms of getting a job for courses offered at both institutions"


So to bring it back to the reason I used it as an example in the first place. If you were to get a drivers licence at uni you'd probably learn all theory behind driving. What to do, how to do it, why you need to do it. You'd attend lectures on various subjects to do with driving. By the time you graduate you'd probably forget it all. You'd have no real on road experience so you'd be thrown in the deep end when you eventually hop in a car. You'd probably get beeped off the road by Tafe graduates who were simply shown the practical applications of driving and got told to jump in the car and learn how to drive which is what they've been doing for the past 2-3 years while their counterparts have been studying! lol That is my take on the TAFE/Uni debate.
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Yup, thats your take on the TAFE/Uni debate. Its about as solid as your understanding of what actually happens at university. I sure hope you're building isn't the same, otherwise it could be an accident waiting to happen.

Perhaps you should push past second hand infomation and come to your own informed conclusions.

[Strider]

The building industry? What would be the equivilant University degree to the Tafe course that you did?

Architecture.
I get paid more, I'm more capable of designing and drafting buildings & I know how to use computer packages which most Architects don't even learn in Uni (seems quite silly?). The only thing Architects get from going to Uni is a inflated head and coming to the realisation that they know jack shite about the building industry and how things work in the real world.


Some degrees don't extend past the theoretical because it isn't possible... take a major in philosophy for example, people who do that aren't expecting a career within it, they do it because they enjoy it.


Like I said, if I had time & money to waste I'd probably attend a uni. Cos I'm sure it'd open my mind and give me a far greater/deeper understanding of a particular topic. Again I take you back to my initial point of TAFE being tailored towards direct employment...


As far as more hands on and less theorectical, how do you know? Have you seen some of the facilities that Universities have? They far exceed what tafe offers for hands on experience. Not only that, most universities work in partnership with some of the biggest firms in the country to provide students with access to world class facilities with million dollar state of the art equipment... the equivalent tafe subject to the degree I did gave you hands on experience with consumer gear that has never been used in a professional situation. Probably because they can't afford to the $180,000 worth of professional equipment that is an industry standard.


Yes I have seen some of the facilities. And if I were paying that much to attend a Uni I'd feel pretty ripped off if I wasn't provided with that. You get what ya pay for like anything in life. I'm sure you'd agree a lot of the stuff they have is a bit overkill tho which comes back to the point of practicality. If it's not industry standard why bother learning it? Is someone at a firm going to employ you because u know how to use something they've never heard of and probably will never implement? No, I doubt it. Which again goes back to being industry relatable.


Yup, thats your take on the TAFE/Uni debate. Its about as solid as your understanding of what actually happens at university. I sure hope you're building isn't the same, otherwise it could be an accident waiting to happen.

Perhaps you should push past second hand infomation and come to your own informed conclusions.

My last paragraph was a bit of a joke. I thought you might have got that. Perhaps you're looking too deep into things rather than seeing things as they really are...anyways, I thought Uni was about partying and socialising! That's what most people remember from doing a degree haha

Anyways, I do appreciate what University can offer. I agree that it offers many specialised and specific courses which offer countless amounts of info and facilities, but in terms of simply get a job in industry I'd definitely recommend people to go to TAFE and learn a course there. Once you've got your foot in the door if you're required to get more specific specialised training then of course Uni might be an option, but my point was mainly about getting a job.

[Jawn]

As I said... I did a university course in Software Engineering. We actually got our own exclusive room that gave us exclusive usage to some of the most popular tools used in industry. We even had a workshop that taught us one piece of software that if we master we are guaranteed a job. Throughout my entire final year, I was inundated with job opportunities. That sort of blows your "you'll get a job at TAFE, not at uni" arguement out the water.

They really are seperate education institutions, used for different purposes. Neither is better. If I was to learn a trade, I'd go to TAFE. If I was to learn something else, I'd go to Uni.

[cdejonge]

Very true Jawn. And if I was smart, I wouldn't have gone to Uni. Instead I would have bludged off the government, save up that money and just travel. :)

[Kevin]

Very true Jawn. And if I was smart, I wouldn't have gone to Uni. Instead I would have bludged off the government, save up that money and just travel. :)

funnily enough that's what politicians do

[cdejonge]

Kevin, you've solved all my problems! I'll be a politician. I'm hopeless at public speaking too so I should get the job!

[Strider]

As I said... I did a university course in Software Engineering. We actually got our own exclusive room that gave us exclusive usage to some of the most popular tools used in industry. We even had a workshop that taught us one piece of software that if we master we are guaranteed a job. Throughout my entire final year, I was inundated with job opportunities. That sort of blows your "you'll get a job at TAFE, not at uni" arguement out the water.

They really are seperate education institutions, used for different purposes. Neither is better. If I was to learn a trade, I'd go to TAFE. If I was to learn something else, I'd go to Uni.

If what you're saying is true then you picked a good course to get into. I agree with you, and I don't recall saying you can't get jobs from Uni. I was speaking comparitivity to Uni and suggesting TAFE courses are tailored towards that specific job.

You guys don't have to become politicians if you wanna travel the world and bludge lol If your sole purpose in life was to make money and that's it, then don't bother going to Uni or TAFE. There are far better ways to generate income without going to TAFE or Uni to be quite frank. Financial Intelligence is completely different from academic intelligence.

[Jawn]

Actually, the industry I am now trained in is in a sharp decline. Its never been this bad for a long time.

[Steph Format]

hmm.

1) what Glenn said - better to cram all the drunks in one car than to have them try and drive themselves. (especially since, don't you have P plates until 21?)

2) senior citizen drivers regularly terrify me on the the roads WAAAAY more than little 16 year old drivers do.

3) I hardly ever agree with what Strider says.

[Mirm]

I'm not sure if you'e on them till you're 21.. I thought it was that you could get your L's at 16, then your red P's for like 18 months and then green P's for a year or so?

But then, I've never read the books, taken the test or even been behind the wheel of a car, so I wouldnt know.

[Aaron]

I'm not sure if you'e on them till you're 21.. I thought it was that you could get your L's at 16, then your red P's for like 18 months and then green P's for a year or so?

But then, I've never read the books, taken the test or even been behind the wheel of a car, so I wouldnt know.

For NSW:

Get your L's at 16, must have them at least 6 months and log 50 hours. Limited to 80km/h.

Red P's at 17 after an on-road driving test. Must have them at least one year. Limited to 90km/h.

Get green P's after a computer-based test. Must have them for at least 2 years. Limited to 100km/h.

Full ('Black') license after computer-based test.

So, you can't get your full license until at least your 20th birthday.

[Lowee]

For Tassie:

Get your L's at 16, have to log 50 hours. Limited to 80km/h.

You can get your P's when your 17. You're then on your P's for 3 years, and have to display them for the first year. You can only go 80km/h in the first year, and must have a blood alcohol level of 0.0 for all three years.

[Kevin]

Limited to 100km/h.

*cough* :p

[Jawn]

Victoria:

Ls at 16 must be on for a minimum of 3 months. However, you must be 18 and over to get your Ps. You are on them for 3 years than you get your fulls. Much better than them wacky speed limited licenses. How wack!

[Strider]

3) I hardly ever agree with what Strider says.

1) Who are you?
2) DILLIGAF. If I knew you I still probably wouldn't care what you thought about me or my opinion.
3) have a nice day :)

[KillingInTheNameOf]

Victoria:

Ls at 16 must be on for a minimum of 3 months. However, you must be 18 and over to get your Ps. You are on them for 3 years than you get your fulls. Much better than them wacky speed limited licenses. How wack!

It's 6 months :p

And its gettin changed to a year soon as well (i think)

[Watty]

WA:

- At 16 you can get your L's and are allowed to drive up to 100.
- At 16 and 9 months you can go for your driving test and once you have passed you have to complete a logbook of 25 hours.
- At 17 and if you have completed your logbook, you can go and sit a hazard perception test and if you pass that you are on your P's.
- On P's for 2 years and can have an alcohol reading of 0.02%.

[The Dying Start]

SA:

- At 16 you can sit a Give Way test of which you must get 100% before you get a multiple choice theory test of which you must not get any more than 5 wrong. You then get your Learner's permit. Learner's can drive up to 80km/h
- At 16 and 6mths you can get your P's if you have passed your driving test/completed the log book which i think these days is 50 hours driving. Probationary Drivers can drive up to 100km/h
- At 19 you can cut up your P's and get your full license. Full license you can drive up to the maximum speed limit (110km/h)

[Jake]

UK
The minute you turn 17, you can apply for your provisional licence and get into a car with anyone over 21 with 3 years full licence. No prior knowledge or anything necessary...

Then you take your theory and full driving test whenever you think you're ready. Then you can just drive at whatever speed you like with no further plates. Ho hum. This country is stupid.

[Caity]

QLD:

You can get your L's when you turn 16 and 6 months.
You can get your P's after 6 months minimum. You have them for 3 years.
Then you're on your opens.

[KillingInTheNameOf]

Alright.

On the roads :cool: