Microphones

[Deadcat Kaye]

I'm developing a keen interest for Microphones,
I wanna know what you've used for live and recording..and in what way, where was is positioned and what sound did it give?
if you own any, what are they?

[wizard_23]

I have little to contribute. I have an SM58.:blink:

[Deadcat Kaye]

Haha I was going to add that we don't need rants about SM58..or 86 for that matter.
I just wouldn't use them for studio recording

[TheColonel]

I'm developing a keen interest for Microphones,
I wanna know what you've used for live and recording..and in what way, where was is positioned and what sound did it give?
if you own any, what are they?

YAY this is where uni FINALLY comes in handy........

First, my personal collection... I use a whole load of different live mics. My main vocal mic is a Sennheiser e935 (http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/professional_wired-microphones_vocal-microphones_evolution-900-e-935). Has a beautiful frequency response, beats the Shure SM58 hands down. Next, I run 2 mics on my guitar cab. First, a Shure SM57 (http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/sm/sm57-instrument-microphone), which has been the industry standard snare and cab mic for almost 40 years.... built like a bloody tank. The other one I use is a Sennheiser e906 (http://www.sennheiserusa.com/professional_wired-microphones_instrument-mics_evolution-900_500202), which is specifically built for guitar cabs. It has a flat front, perfect for sitting right on the grill, and has a wonderful mid range boost. mmmmmmm. The last mic I have is a Shure 520DX Green Bullet (http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/classic/520dx_green_bullet_harmonica_microphone). This is an omni-directional mic, specifically made for harmonicas.... but i use it for Lo-Fi vocals. Very cool sounding!!! I have to mount it in a shockmount, as it was made to be held in the hands, but who cares. It's fun! :)

It should be noted that all the microphones I use live are dynamic, ie, they don't require phantom power. Dynamics tend to be more robust, which makes them great for live work...

In terms of the mics I have used in the studio..... these include the Shure SM57/SM58, Sennheiser MD421, Beyer M201, AKG 414, C1000, D112 and many others. Here's a list of instruments and which mic's I would personally use on them:

Kick: AKG D112, Sennheiser MD421
Snare: Beyer M201, Shure SM57
Hi-Hat: Beyer M201
Toms: Sennheiser MD421
Overheads: 2 x AKG C1000
Bass: either DI OR a Sennheiser MD421
Acoustic Guitar: AKG 414 or Beyer M201... have used the MD421 for a bit of a midrange-y sound
Guitar Cab: AKG 414, Shure SM57 or Sennheiser MD421
Acoustic Piano: Beyer M201, AKG 414

Most of these are Condensor mics, which seem to have a bit more clarity to them, which is great for recording, rather than live work. The AKG 414's go for around $1500 each, and the MD421's around $700, so these aren't cheap mics.

And then we move onto the vocals. I'm lucky enough to have access to a Neumann U87, which is the industry standard in vocal mics. The U87 normally runs at around $6000, and sounds AMAZING! honestly, until you can try one, you won't know what I mean............. but TRY ONE IF YOU CAN!

One other thing which might be work considering is Ribbon Mics. These were used back in the 70's a lot, especially for guitar cabs. They had a certain warmth to them, and maintained a lot of clarity. Maybe check them out, see if you can find any info out on them...

The last thing to consider is get some damn good preamps! a microphone only sounds as good as the preamp it's running through.... if you can get your hands on a beautiful tube preamp, with a nice EQ, you'd be surprised how good a sound you could get, even with just an SM58. I would recommend anything by FocusRite or Mindprint. Even the standard Mic preamps on the Digidesign 003 are really good!

All things to think about..... :D

[TheColonel]

just realised I missed the second part of your question... :blink:

The best way (i've found!) to learn to position a microphone, is to be isolated from the music source with a good set of monitors, and get someone to sit in the studio and move the mic around for a few minutes while the musician is playing. It's really a case of finding the best position in that room, as every room is VERY different to any other.

[Deadcat Kaye]

Haha I just wanna know what people have found that worked for them, everyone has a different experience when recording and I tend to find are bias'd towards certain mic's. (I had a 10 week course specifically on Microphones alone)
I'm not lookin for purchase just people's personal experience.

I have had the pleasure of using a U87 and would be best in saying I would use this mic for recording whenever there is access to it. Infact this thursday i'm in the studio recording an acoustic act and that is where the U87 will come in best.

I have also had the most awesome opportunity of using an RCA 44 BX. It was the real deal, about 60 years old.
We put 2 bass traps infront of the kick drum then another on top and put the 44 infront of that. Words do not describe how perfect the kick drum sounded.

[TheColonel]

total phail on my part then..... :blink:

I like the MD421, coz it's so damn versatile, the U87 coz it's AMAZING, and also the whole line of Audio Technica gear.



To all you others, read what i just wrote coz otherwise it'll get wasted :p

[UbangiStomper]

Haha....Dave, great post mate. I'm sure people will find that useful! Some of my favourite combos on a guitar cab has been a rhode NT1A and a Legacy/Carillon Axis 70 (Royer 121 knockoff). Basically, both about 50cm away from the grill cloth. I know that's a reasonable distance away, but I just love it when you can get a bit of air between the cab and mics. Not as controllable perhaps as close micing, but I think it sounds bigger and more natural. Most of the high end cut comes from the condenser and the ribbon provides that round chewy midrange grind. You can get a bit of room sound from the ribbon though, being a figure 8 polar pattern, but that's not necessarily a bad thing!

Dave, if your getting off over the 87 (rightly so of course!:P) wait until you hear a U47. Preferably through an LA2A also....Best vocal combo I've heard so far! AKG C12 right up there also.

[Joab]

i toally missed this thread, some very nice info here though :) im looking at getting another mic for my vocals, freeing up my sm58 for backup vocals. how much do they sting you for one of them sennies davey???

also this might be a good spot for this.

i run my sm58 into a little marshall 50 watt acoustic amp (its the brown one?) at band prac. i have been haveing alot of problems with it of late.

i crank the shit out it due to its lack of power, and lately it gets nice and fuzzy (im assuming speaker break up) but ALSO, sometimes it tends to get a sort of a heavy tremolo to it (think tom morello kilswitchness) when im singing one long drawn out note pretty hard. any ideas what this is?

also, you two music peoples talking here, what should i get to replace this piece of shit. im not after something amazing, just a something for vocals. of course if it could handle a pub gig that'd be great, but i wouldnt be too fussed if it was just something for band prac. any suggestions? a small PA?? even a small PA that was decent quality and ide be able to expand on later.

any ideas???

*edit* on my to do list

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-Sennheiser-e935-Pro-handheld-cardioid-dynamic-mic-/150369701756?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2302bb8f7c
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Sennheiser-e906-e-906-Guitar-Amp-Instrument-Mic-XLR-/390191526802?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad93a3392

;)

just need suggestions for some form of PA!

[Joab]

http://www.musoscorner.com.au/site/index.cfm?module=STORETIGERV2&bit=products&product_id=194495&cart_id=9A11E4CA-C45A-CBC0-89AED8BB4AC02423&category_code=4862

how wold that go?? be nice for pub gigs??

heres more info on it, i bet ide be able to get a real nice price on her at musos corner (where i bought my cheknee)

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/products/pa_systems/stagepas500/features.html

[UbangiStomper]

Dude, kinda hard to say with the Marshall combo, firstly is it the one that's got an XLR mic input on it? If so, are you using that one? I know it seems pretty simple but for some reason I've seen a lot of people with XLR to TR/TRS cables plugging in to guitar amps/audio amps etc. The signal the mics sending out isn't what a guitar input is expecting to see and stuff. That might have something to do with it, otherwise I'm not sure man! I would've thought it'd have enough juice to handle vocals at a practice at least? If you've got access to one, try a compressor in front of it to smooth out the peaks before it hits the amp maybe?

Sennies are great, but maybe check out Audix and probably Beyer Dynamic as well, might be a little cheaper for a similar result. Shure's Beta range are really good too. I dunno, so much talk about 58's/57's being the shit and whatnot. 57's are awesome on snares and stuff, but I reckon the games moved on a bit for other stuff. I just find them scratchy most of the time on guitars :S There's better options than a 58 now too, just they're pretty cheap, don't break and get the job done I guess. Senny e906s are the balls on a guitar cab in a live situation though I reckon ;)

I reckon if you were looking to upgrade that vocal amp situation, just put down the coin on a half decent entry level PA. That way you can get better quality practices and use it at shows and whatnot. Laugh if you will, but the Behringer PA speakers and mixers have come a long way, for the price they're pretty hard to beat I think. Most of the higher end powered speakers have built in DSP for room correction/limiting/EQ etc and at the end of the day, if something DOES break, they're not exactly super expensive to fix/replace. That said, Yamaha stuff is always going to give you good quality for a bit of a premium. I've mixed a bunch of shows for one of my mates bands using their 16 channel Yamaha mixer and a couple of Alto powered monitors, which is pretty agricultural, but fuck it got the job done, punters loved it haha. That's all that matters!

Erm. Gone on a bit here....to summarise haha. I'd say keep an open mind, spend a bit of money on getting your vocal chain/rig sounding half decent. At the end of the day, like it or not, in a rock band situation the vocal is the most important thing. It's hard to accept that being a guitarist, but the punters USUALLY there to belt out the lyrics to tunes they dig and get pissed, not jizz their pants over how awesomely transparent the last boost pedal the guitarist kicked on was for those two bars in the second verse. I might, cos I'm usually listening for it haha, but yeah try that on your tone deaf mate.

So yeah, do it right and drop some dosh on a PA, fuck the Marshall acoustic thing off! :P

[Joab]

hahahahahahaha VERY well said!!

we're a three peice, so i'm the vocalist and guitarist ;) love the idea of fucking the marshall off and grabbing some form of decent PA. do you rekon like that yamaha pack... (http://www.musoscorner.com.au/site/index.cfm?module=STORETIGERV2&bit=products&product_id=194495&cart_id=A52C2639-D1BF-74D5-3515317C16D48F84&category_code=4862) ... would fit the bill?

im thinking around the 1 and a half grand mark is a reasonable amount to spend on this? im pretty good mates with the bloke from musos corner, so he'd be able to hook me up with a great deal.

that yamaha pack seems a good'n, solid little thing decent enough to handle some pub gigs and practice easily.

oh and dont worry about the looong yarn, thats what i was after!! the more advice the better :) if you can see anything that you'de reccommend moreso on that musos corner website, i can get it for a niiiice price so dont hesitate the reccommend or steer me away from ;)

[TheColonel]

hahahahahahaha VERY well said!!

we're a three peice, so i'm the vocalist and guitarist ;) love the idea of fucking the marshall off and grabbing some form of decent PA. do you rekon like that yamaha pack... (http://www.musoscorner.com.au/site/index.cfm?module=STORETIGERV2&bit=products&product_id=194495&cart_id=A52C2639-D1BF-74D5-3515317C16D48F84&category_code=4862) ... would fit the bill?

im thinking around the 1 and a half grand mark is a reasonable amount to spend on this? im pretty good mates with the bloke from musos corner, so he'd be able to hook me up with a great deal.

that yamaha pack seems a good'n, solid little thing decent enough to handle some pub gigs and practice easily.

oh and dont worry about the looong yarn, thats what i was after!! the more advice the better :) if you can see anything that you'de reccommend moreso on that musos corner website, i can get it for a niiiice price so dont hesitate the reccommend or steer me away from ;)

Go somewhere that has a large variety and try them out.... until you can side-by-side them, you won't know...

Yamaha are very decent, but $1500 won't get you very far. You'd need to be looking at around the 3k mark to get something that cuts through a mix nicely.

[Joab]

hmmm so what wattage are we talking?? that yamaha pack is 500 watts it says??

if i were to buy a mixer and speakers separately and make my own pack, what do you reccommend? powerwise etc??

like, a 500watt powered mixer and 2 passive speakers? or powered speakers and... ahh ive got no idea, just what do you reccommend?

also, i wouldnt be too opposed to behringer i suppose.

would it be best to spend more on say some decetn yami speakers and a behringer mixer, or vice versa.

[TheColonel]

hmmm so what wattage are we talking?? that yamaha pack is 500 watts it says??

if i were to buy a mixer and speakers separately and make my own pack, what do you reccommend? powerwise etc??

like, a 500watt powered mixer and 2 passive speakers? or powered speakers and... ahh ive got no idea, just what do you reccommend?

also, i wouldnt be too opposed to behringer i suppose.

would it be best to spend more on say some decetn yami speakers and a behringer mixer, or vice versa.

not behringer.... I'd recommend 2 powered yamaha speakers (MSR 400's), and any of the MG series of desks. Remember these brands are made to work with other products of the same brand.

[Joab]

ahh i see.

what do you think is more important, better quality speakers or better quality mixer.

and what wattage do you reccommend all up, two of these or something 800wattish you think (http://www.musoscorner.com.au/site/index.cfm?module=STORETIGERV2&bit=products&cart_id=A62538CB-DB74-B7A7-62B540F02D8D8DCD&product_id=169692&category_code=3243&product_tab=additional_description&additional_desc_id=11461)

and what mixer??

[TheColonel]

ahh i see.

what do you think is more important, better quality speakers or better quality mixer.

and what wattage do you reccommend all up, two of these or something 800wattish you think (http://www.musoscorner.com.au/site/index.cfm?module=STORETIGERV2&bit=products&cart_id=A62538CB-DB74-B7A7-62B540F02D8D8DCD&product_id=169692&category_code=3243&product_tab=additional_description&additional_desc_id=11461)

and what mixer??

both are as important as each other.... The same thing applies to high fives - if both sides of said high five giving parties is not working hard, the high five fails.

It really depends on how many people you're playing too, but you probably won't need more than 500W. Anything more than that and you have to start worrying about foldbacks and actually having someone mix the damn thing.

Just get something that sounds good! Oh, and don't skimp on anything, this includes mics and leads.

[Joab]

yeah we've got some sm58s, cant go wrong there :)

we're thinking about putting away the money from our first few gigs and buying a PA.

we'll just go into musos and talk to the blokes and see what they think the best deal is. they treat us really well and definately wont rip us off. hell, they talked me out of buying a 6k falcon in favour of the cheknee because they knew it was a better option for me. theyre top fellas!

but yep, that yamaha pack is looking the goods at the moment:)

[Sammas II]

And then we move onto the vocals. I'm lucky enough to have access to a Neumann U87, which is the industry standard in vocal mics. The U87 normally runs at around $6000, and sounds AMAZING! honestly, until you can try one, you won't know what I mean............. but TRY ONE IF YOU CAN!



errrr... the phrase "industry standard" is so cliche, isn't it?

The Neumann u87 is a decent mic, but the "industry standard" isn't a compliment. The SM57 is the industry standard for guitar amps and it sounds rather hideous. The only reason it is used so widely is 1. it offers decent and predicable results and 2. it is reasonably priced and 3. it's quite versatile. If you pay $6000 for one you're crazy. I passed up two at $1500 a few weeks ago.

Just like an SM57, nobody would pick a u87 if they had mic's like a Neumann U67 or an ELAM 251. Neumann isn't the company it once was... and I'd put the u87 behind large diaphram condensers made by Wunder, Korby, Wagner, Brauner, Horch and Gefell. Gefell used to be part of the Neumann company but it was on the wrong side of the wall during the cold war. It turned into it's own company and today manufactures mic's much closer to the original Neumann quality.

Not to drag the topic too off its rails, but it's worth noting that a microphone will always take backseat to the quality of instruments and the quality of room you are recording in. All a great microphone will do for a dull acoustic guitar being recorded in a dull room is allow you to capture the dullness with greater clarity. :huh: